 Issue Data
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Issue #1118: Redbelly Mine has wrong mist & ore
Unfortunately, for this (emittance) we're stuck with the color palate the designers have specified, or we have to make a new kind of light object.
So far, I've only found 2 shades of red: dark (MiddenEye01) and light (MQ206LightRedRim). But of course, the Light there might be referring to the Light source itself.
There are some oranges (Alikr_Orange, CidhaMine_Orange, DaryLightOrangeShadow, IceCavern_Orange, Ilinalta_Orange, KorvanjundOrange, and TestCoryLightOrange), I'll try to see whether any of them look rusty.
So far, I've only found 2 shades of red: dark (MiddenEye01) and light (MQ206LightRedRim). But of course, the Light there might be referring to the Light source itself.
There are some oranges (Alikr_Orange, CidhaMine_Orange, DaryLightOrangeShadow, IceCavern_Orange, Ilinalta_Orange, KorvanjundOrange, and TestCoryLightOrange), I'll try to see whether any of them look rusty.
Looking at the lighting numbers, it seems you integrated attachment 198, not attachment 204. Could you try again?
(In reply to comment #26)
> Moving the ore bits from Redbelly to Northwind this way isn't going to
> happen. The ebony in Shore's Stone will need to be replace-swapped to iron.
>
No, no, no, no, no! As a player, I'd be seriously irritated to have ebony in my inventory turn into iron. These chunks have to stay ebony!
* It was serendipitous that the only other smelter in the Rift was very close, but up a mountain.
* It was serendipitous that the nearest mine was iron, and it had exactly the same number of veins.
* It was serendipitous that the nearest mine has the same 10 day reset and isn't clearable, so you'll get exactly the same amount of ebony in the game.
* It was serendipitous that the nearest mine was a dungeon of min level 12, which makes more sense level-wise for ebony.
This is really the best possible plan. Easy to describe. Easy to implement.
> If Northwind is going to get converted to an ebony mine then it needs to be
> done without dragging stuff across several cells to do it. Any loose iron
> there should be replace-swapped with ebony.
>
Again, a bad idea, but I didn't see any loose iron around Northwind. Did I miss something obvious?
I tested, and there's no problem with these ebony chunks changing cells. What did I miss?
> Also, for what it's worth, even the radiant quest in the village only
> responds to selling iron. So yeah, someone screwed this one up bigtime.
Indeed, I mentioned that back in comment 15, with a link.
I didn't know anything about the geology, but apparently the level designer did. It's egregiously obvious that somebody else came along later and changed to ebony. Clearly, the game needed more ebony. However, that this place should be iron has long been an irritant.
> Moving the ore bits from Redbelly to Northwind this way isn't going to
> happen. The ebony in Shore's Stone will need to be replace-swapped to iron.
>
No, no, no, no, no! As a player, I'd be seriously irritated to have ebony in my inventory turn into iron. These chunks have to stay ebony!
* It was serendipitous that the only other smelter in the Rift was very close, but up a mountain.
* It was serendipitous that the nearest mine was iron, and it had exactly the same number of veins.
* It was serendipitous that the nearest mine has the same 10 day reset and isn't clearable, so you'll get exactly the same amount of ebony in the game.
* It was serendipitous that the nearest mine was a dungeon of min level 12, which makes more sense level-wise for ebony.
This is really the best possible plan. Easy to describe. Easy to implement.
> If Northwind is going to get converted to an ebony mine then it needs to be
> done without dragging stuff across several cells to do it. Any loose iron
> there should be replace-swapped with ebony.
>
Again, a bad idea, but I didn't see any loose iron around Northwind. Did I miss something obvious?
I tested, and there's no problem with these ebony chunks changing cells. What did I miss?
> Also, for what it's worth, even the radiant quest in the village only
> responds to selling iron. So yeah, someone screwed this one up bigtime.
Indeed, I mentioned that back in comment 15, with a link.
I didn't know anything about the geology, but apparently the level designer did. It's egregiously obvious that somebody else came along later and changed to ebony. Clearly, the game needed more ebony. However, that this place should be iron has long been an irritant.
I started over from scratch. Only converted the floor mist to fog01. The 2 mists in the alcoves look better without the heaviness.
I also adjusted the various lights. The omnis were simply too vivid in contrast to the others. And I swapped some shadow-creating lights. You probably won't notice, but one is at the entrance now (instead of an omni) and one on the floor area by itself.
I tried the previously unused Test orange. It seemed the closest to rust of those available. Best we can do without creating our own special colored fixtures.
BTW, I was surprised you're still working on UOP and USIP. Gosh, I hope we find all the bugs here faster....
I also adjusted the various lights. The omnis were simply too vivid in contrast to the others. And I swapped some shadow-creating lights. You probably won't notice, but one is at the entrance now (instead of an omni) and one on the floor area by itself.
I tried the previously unused Test orange. It seemed the closest to rust of those available. Best we can do without creating our own special colored fixtures.
BTW, I was surprised you're still working on UOP and USIP. Gosh, I hope we find all the bugs here faster....
Moved 1 more light. They were kinda careless about light placement, too, now that I've started to pay attention....
There is a lot of contradictory information about this mine. At some point, someone will tell you that nobody knows where the red mist comes from – which indicates that the miners don’t know what they’re doing (powdery red gossan, also known as “limonite†– although it represents a crude mixture rather than a distinct mineral – was the main ore of iron in antique and mediaeval times). Thus, there’s no reason to be too suprised if it would turn out that they never mined any iron ore at all.
On another occasion, on the mission to pick up an ore sample, the blacksmith tells about a mysterious ore as yet unknown to the miners which was recently found in deeper levels – which indicates that the iron deposit of this mine is nearly (entirely ?) depleted (iron gossans are typically products of superficial oxidation, but not necessarily of primary iron ores – in fact, there are many deposit types where ore composition abruptly changes below a certain depth). Therefore – believe it or not – it still makes perfect sense.
On another occasion, on the mission to pick up an ore sample, the blacksmith tells about a mysterious ore as yet unknown to the miners which was recently found in deeper levels – which indicates that the iron deposit of this mine is nearly (entirely ?) depleted (iron gossans are typically products of superficial oxidation, but not necessarily of primary iron ores – in fact, there are many deposit types where ore composition abruptly changes below a certain depth). Therefore – believe it or not – it still makes perfect sense.
I don’t buy any of those arguments. Just a bunch of unsubstansiated assumptions.
“Redbelly is supposed to be nothing but an iron mine. Been working it for years. Then right before the spiders had moved in, we found that chunk of ore. Never seen anything like it.â€
Nothing they say indicates that the iron has been depleted. In fact…
“Finally, we can reopen the mine and put Shor’s Stone back on the map!â€
Other than the chunk of quicksilver ore, there is no mention that they have found any other ore what so ever.
“Redbelly Mine gets its name from the red mist filling the place.â€
“Damn place is filled with this reddish mist. Can’t see more than ten feet in front of your face.â€
There is hardly any mist at all, and the little there is is white. I must have missed how that made sense.
“Redbelly is supposed to be nothing but an iron mine. Been working it for years. Then right before the spiders had moved in, we found that chunk of ore. Never seen anything like it.â€
Nothing they say indicates that the iron has been depleted. In fact…
“Finally, we can reopen the mine and put Shor’s Stone back on the map!â€
Other than the chunk of quicksilver ore, there is no mention that they have found any other ore what so ever.
“Redbelly Mine gets its name from the red mist filling the place.â€
“Damn place is filled with this reddish mist. Can’t see more than ten feet in front of your face.â€
There is hardly any mist at all, and the little there is is white. I must have missed how that made sense.
>Just a bunch of unsubstansiated assumptions<
Nope. Just basics of geology.
Nope. Just basics of geology.
This is still too red. There's nothing we can do about this? It looks like an Oblivion realm, not a mine with a rust dust problem.
I never doubted that. It’s still just a bunch of assumptions that it’s relevant to this game and this location.
Someone also states that no-one has been killed, and yet there are ‘dessicated corpses’ at the bottom
(In reply to comment #46)
> Oh hell, didn't see #199. Damn this thing.
Nope. Still too red.
> Oh hell, didn't see #199. Damn this thing.
Nope. Still too red.
You're not understanding 
The ore chunks loose on the ground, before you pick them up, that's all that would be changed. Once you have them, the game no longer tracks them with a form ID unless they're marked quest aliases, which these aren't. They are forever more going to remain chunks of ebony for those who already stole them.
It's perfectly safe to do the kind of swap I'm talking about.
As for all the serendipity, it would seem to be a bit more than just a large coincidence that you have two mines near each other both with smelters and exactly the same number of veins. Almost as though someone went "doh, not enough ebony" and was fixing that only to be told to make it iron instead because someone else put another ebony mine in elsewhere.
The deeper one goes with this, the more this looks like a giant communications clusterfuck than anything else.
The ore chunks loose on the ground, before you pick them up, that's all that would be changed. Once you have them, the game no longer tracks them with a form ID unless they're marked quest aliases, which these aren't. They are forever more going to remain chunks of ebony for those who already stole them.
It's perfectly safe to do the kind of swap I'm talking about.
As for all the serendipity, it would seem to be a bit more than just a large coincidence that you have two mines near each other both with smelters and exactly the same number of veins. Almost as though someone went "doh, not enough ebony" and was fixing that only to be told to make it iron instead because someone else put another ebony mine in elsewhere.
The deeper one goes with this, the more this looks like a giant communications clusterfuck than anything else.
I've exhausted the color pallet chosen by the game artists. But there are 2 more sliders that you can manipulate yourself without making anything new. Under Interiors, right click ShorsStoneRedBellyMine, choose lighting, and make some new colors for Near and Far.
I chose dark orange and darkest red from the default pallet. My guess is you really don't want the actual orange and red from real life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:La_Palma_Limonit.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galena_Limonite.jpg
I chose dark orange and darkest red from the default pallet. My guess is you really don't want the actual orange and red from real life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:La_Palma_Limonit.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galena_Limonite.jpg
(In reply to comment #28)
> It's perfectly safe to do the kind of swap I'm talking about.
>
OK. I didn't understand. Somewhere I'd read never to change that because it could screw up a game.
However, you haven't explained why simply moving the chunks of ore is bad? I'm trying to preserve the exact same amount of ebony in the game. Perhaps I'm too conservative in that regard.
> The deeper one goes with this, the more this looks like a giant
> communications clusterfuck than anything else.
Agreed. But as we know how to fix the ebony->iron, we are in a small (tiny, miniscule) disagreement about where to replace the ebony?
> It's perfectly safe to do the kind of swap I'm talking about.
>
OK. I didn't understand. Somewhere I'd read never to change that because it could screw up a game.
However, you haven't explained why simply moving the chunks of ore is bad? I'm trying to preserve the exact same amount of ebony in the game. Perhaps I'm too conservative in that regard.
> The deeper one goes with this, the more this looks like a giant
> communications clusterfuck than anything else.
Agreed. But as we know how to fix the ebony->iron, we are in a small (tiny, miniscule) disagreement about where to replace the ebony?
3 chunks of ore won't make much difference in the end.
The reason for not dragging them across 2 cells is because the engine this game runs on reacts very badly to reassigning objects from one cell to another in the same worldspace over large distances.
The reason for not dragging them across 2 cells is because the engine this game runs on reacts very badly to reassigning objects from one cell to another in the same worldspace over large distances.
(In reply to comment #30)
> The reason for not dragging them across 2 cells is because the engine this
> game runs on reacts very badly to reassigning objects from one cell to
> another in the same worldspace over large distances.
First I'd heard of this problem. Thankfully, it's not a large distance (I think it's 2 cells, though).
But I QA'd it pretty heavily, and kept the same objectids. I tested from a save in the village and a save on the mountain, there were no warnings in the log files turning the patch on and off and on and off. I also tried riding into town with the patch on....
Moreover, by keeping the same objectids, we don't have the usual warning box message about missing objects after turning off the test patch.
Finally, this would be more compatible with other modders (I didn't find any) who might have also moved the same ore.
> The reason for not dragging them across 2 cells is because the engine this
> game runs on reacts very badly to reassigning objects from one cell to
> another in the same worldspace over large distances.
First I'd heard of this problem. Thankfully, it's not a large distance (I think it's 2 cells, though).
But I QA'd it pretty heavily, and kept the same objectids. I tested from a save in the village and a save on the mountain, there were no warnings in the log files turning the patch on and off and on and off. I also tried riding into town with the patch on....
Moreover, by keeping the same objectids, we don't have the usual warning box message about missing objects after turning off the test patch.
Finally, this would be more compatible with other modders (I didn't find any) who might have also moved the same ore.
Not having seen your color matching attempt in the past few hours, here's mine.
Now it seems too orange, but this is as close to the actual colors in the photos as I can get. Many years ago, dating an artist I learned that they have entire semesters of color class. Although I think it should be more reddish, maybe this makes you happier?
Also, this goes outside the color scheme the game uses. They had professionals develop a palette. There are folks who complain the Skyrim colors are too gray, but they are all carefully matched. Doing our own feels wrong....
Now it seems too orange, but this is as close to the actual colors in the photos as I can get. Many years ago, dating an artist I learned that they have entire semesters of color class. Although I think it should be more reddish, maybe this makes you happier?
Also, this goes outside the color scheme the game uses. They had professionals develop a palette. There are folks who complain the Skyrim colors are too gray, but they are all carefully matched. Doing our own feels wrong....
When you do a search & replace from the edit menu, that retains the same object IDs too. This isn't going to cause any issues as I have it now. All swapped without adding any new object IDs. So if modders moved them, they'll get moved, though they'll revert to the opposite of what we've turned them into.
I've been at this stuff for awhile, I have lots of tricks up my sleeve
I've been at this stuff for awhile, I have lots of tricks up my sleeve
(In reply to comment #31)
> Everything but the mist is done btw.
Do you want me to try the mist? I assume control-f changing from FXMistLow01Adjust to one of the Fog effects (there are a lot of them). But how do I change the color?
> Everything but the mist is done btw.
Do you want me to try the mist? I assume control-f changing from FXMistLow01Adjust to one of the Fog effects (there are a lot of them). But how do I change the color?
Here's why I think the mine needs to be redder. I've actually been in iron and copper mines here in Michigan. Everything is covered in red dust. A picture found on the web:
http://www.miningartifacts.org/files/023iron_1.jpg
http://www.miningartifacts.org/files/023iron_1.jpg
(In reply to comment #33)
> When you do a search & replace from the edit menu, that retains the same
> object IDs too. This isn't going to cause any issues as I have it now. All
> swapped without adding any new object IDs. So if modders moved them, they'll
> get moved, though they'll revert to the opposite of what we've turned them
> into.
>
yes, that's how I did mine.
anyway, with objections to moving objects by 2 cells, here's an in-place replacement of 3 ruined books with 3 ebony ore.
> When you do a search & replace from the edit menu, that retains the same
> object IDs too. This isn't going to cause any issues as I have it now. All
> swapped without adding any new object IDs. So if modders moved them, they'll
> get moved, though they'll revert to the opposite of what we've turned them
> into.
>
yes, that's how I did mine.
anyway, with objections to moving objects by 2 cells, here's an in-place replacement of 3 ruined books with 3 ebony ore.